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    #16
    Re: My opinion.

    Hi Daisy, welcome and what a cracking first post

    Editing: First thing to remember is that a digital image always benefits from a little sharpening, it's just the nature of them so there's no cheat in doing that.

    Second thing to remember is that a camera's dynamic range is not as good as ours so, when we look at a bright light our eyes adjust and the same is true when we peek into the shadows. Post processing (PP) permits you to do exactly that by reducing the highlights and increasing the shadows. There's no cheat in that.

    For those two actions, then, all your doing is making the image reflect what you saw with your own eyes and many photographers will stop there.

    But is there anything wrong with taking it further? Not in my mind and, perhaps, the third thing to remember is that a photographer (unless, for example, reporting a news event) is an artist who is creating a pleasing picture using a camera in the same way a painter using oils or water colours. PP skills are just a part of that.

    When you chose to record jpegs the camera is doing pretty much that anyway but is usually heavy handed and produces results that may disappoint. Furthermore, in producing the jpeg for you the camera has thrown away a lot of the digital information you'd need to do the job properly so always shoot RAW as that records everything the sensor saw.

    Oh, one more thing, with Light Room, even if you don't touch the processing side, the Library module provides you with an excellent cataloguing tool to keep track of the thousands of images that you'll soon amass.

    Cheers,
    John

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      #17
      Re: My opinion.

      Countryfile calendar: yes and yes

      Cheers,
      John

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        #18
        Re: My opinion.

        I think cheating is a bit strong too. As has been said photo manipulation is as old as photography itself. I've posted, in the past, about a photo of Ulysses S Grant from c1865 which shows him on horse back in front of troops. In fact it's a composite of three different images the only part that's Grant is the head. Politically photos have been doctored all through history.

        Personally I've no problem with post processing in the main. Compositing is maybe a step too far, apart from replacing skies. Cropping, adjusting shadows/highlights, removing distracting elements, etc. all seem acceptable to me.

        If you shot jpeg then there is still some post processing that's done by the camera, sharpening , picture style, etc.
        Canon 5D3, 7D2, 60D, Canon 70-200L f2.8 IS II, Canon 300 f4L IS, Canon 16-35 f4 L, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, Canon 1.4 MkIII extender, Sigma AF 10-20mm f/3.5 EX DC HSM, Sigma 150-600 Contemporary, Tamron SP AF 70-300 F/4-5.6 Di VC USD, Canon EF-S 18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6 IS
        https://www.flickr.com/photos/16830751@N03/

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          #19
          Re: My opinion.

          When I first went Digital , I felt exactly as you do Daisy , someone said to me if you don`t enhance your images your in for a world of disappointment , I hate to admit it but they were right . It has got hard to see what is what I would call an honest photo these days though , and I would encourage that less enhancement is more . For me heavy cropping , cloning , adding space and such things are as you put it cheating , moderate cropping , boosting the saturation , lightening the shadows and sharpening are things that pretty much every , if not all the images you take will benefit from . Doing all these minor enhancements is not cheating , it`s just improving what your image already has .Your camera is likely already set to do these things (apart from cropping of course ) . If you have not altered everything in the camera menu to zero . Surely it`s better you control those things than letting the camera do it for you ? I think you will find that generally these minor enhancements are accepted and expected in most competitions these days , the more heavier ( Cheating ) options I mentioned above are likely not so readily accepted . You will never get the best from your photos if you don`t do some enhancements , how far you go is down to your own morals . Good luck .

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            #20
            Re: My opinion.

            Ah! Country File? No wonder my pics were thrown out in the first cull!!!!!
            Canon 6D; Canon 760D;Canon G15;Canon 40mm f2.8(Pancake);Canon 50mm f1.8(ii); Canon 17mm-40mm f4L;Canon EF-S 10-18mm f4.5-5.6 IS STM;Canon EF-S 55-250mm f4-5.6 STM lens;Canon 24mm-105mmf4L IS;Canon 70-300mm f4-f5.6 L IS USM;Kenko 1.4x HD TC;Canon 430EX ii flash;Giottos tripod;Manfretto monopod;Cokin P filters + bits and pieces!

            www.flickr.com/photos/nathaniel3390

            North Wales where music and the sea give a great concert!

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              #21
              Re: My opinion.

              Great first post! Lots of good replies! Just remember that your camera literally records digits of information. It doesn't capture colour. So you are dependent on the ability of somebody to recreate the image from binary information... If you use JPEG to record your images you choose one of several styles depending on your preferences, and you are therefore allowing some technician in Japan (since that is where all Canon cameras are designed) to decide what your photograph should look like. Alternatively, if you record in RAW you will have a very anodyne and boring picture unless you use one of the myriad bits of software - and Canon supply you with DPP anyway - to help produce your photograph. In a sense that is exactly the same as using a darkroom, as others have said. Certainly when I used to use a darkroom, I made lots of decisions as to how my photographs should come out. It is also worth remembering that Ansel Adams (regarded as one of the greatest American landscape photographers) used to create photographs over many days, bringing different clouds in for example. So with modern photography we are doing the same, except the tools are greater.

              So: is there a place for a totally "unproduced" photograph - such a thing does not exist: use an iPhone and a Samsung Galaxy to take the exact same photograph and you will get something totally different. Use flash or not? Use a telephoto lens or a wide angle lens? Open aperture or close it down? Filters? Tripod? etc etc.

              That said I think there are some places where "editing" needs to be kept to the minimum: photo-journalism for example. But is it cheating to create a photograph that you want to hang on your wall: definitely not! Moving an irritating leaf out of the way, or a twig is harmless, unless it is about photo-journalism. Embrace post processing it and you will have a much more satisfying time as a photographer! The five magic ingredients: your eye, your imagination, your camera, the software that you use, how you show it (what paper, or material, your website, etc etc).

              Have a great time!

              Richard
              Richard Anderson Photography at www.raphoto.me

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                #22
                Re: My opinion.

                Looks like if I want to improve my photos I need to change my attitude, though this I will find very hard.

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                  #23
                  Re: My opinion.

                  Originally posted by Daisy M View Post
                  First post, only joined today & very much a new photographer. Having been given some back copies of EOS Magazine I note that many issues have articles on altering your photos. I personally find this a form of cheating, as surely with so many wonderful settings on EOS cameras there is no need to cheat?
                  Welcome to the forum.
                  For me post processing is just the digital version of a darkroom. Whilst JPG's can look ok, the RAW files will often look a bit 'flat' without processing, and RAW files give useful flexibility in recovering detail etc.
                  Andy
                  _____________________________
                  Canon EOS 5D MarkIV, 11-24mm f4, 24-70mm f2.8 II, 24-105mm f4, 70-200mm f2.8 IS II USM, 100-400mm f4.5-5.6 IS II USM, 100mm Macro, 50mm f1.4, Speedlite 600EX-RT, Manfrotto tripod
                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyberdavis/

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                    #24
                    Re: My opinion.

                    Daisy, it's not an attitude that needs to change as I'm sure you want to be as good a photographer as you can.

                    Let me describe my digital experience...

                    I'd been a film photographer since being given a camera when I was ten. I bought my first EOS film camera when they were first released which was followed by a near pro body later. I was in a local camera club and thought I was pretty good.

                    I bought my first serious digital camera (a Canon G2) thirteen years ago and upgraded to a G10 a few years later. Despite shooting nearly everything on auto and processing nothing I thought these made me an even better photographer.

                    I bought my first DLSR (a 7D) a few years ago shortly after joining this forum. I immediately took my expensive new toy on holiday, shot everything on auto but, when I returned and viewed the results, they were horrible! I was devastated and expressed my disappointment here but one kind member took one of my images, sharpened it and made some simple adjustments which transformed it altogether.

                    This, it must be stressed, was not 'photoshopping' (which has become synonymous with giving super models the odd tuck and hiding spots, etc.) no, it was simply making good what was already there; what the camera had captured but the in-camera jpeg processing had made a poor job of.

                    Your job as a photographer is to capture a scene that appeals to you but your responsibility doesn't end when the shutter is pressed (which, unless into D&P yourself, was pretty much the case with film). No, the digital photographer then has to take the data file the camera has saved and produce a finished image that reflects what was seen when the shutter was released - and that's where post processing software such as Canon's bundled DPP or Adobe Lightroom comes in. As has been said the jpegs the camera produces are created using algorithms written by a Japanese programmer as a one-size-fits-all but I know you could do better.

                    The best I can suggest is take photos and post them here. I'm sure someone will be happy to let you see what can be achieved with some simple steps.

                    Cheers,
                    John

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                      #25
                      Re: My opinion.

                      Thanks for all that advice John, much appreciated.

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                        #26
                        Re: My opinion.

                        Honestly folks, you can do pretty darn well straight out of the camera. My number one issue as previously stated is when one makes Photoshop a crutch for poor technique. If you use the proper technique, you won't need to sharpen your landscape photos. And if you use the proper technique you will have to soften portraits as opposed to sharpening them (unless of course you use a crappy lens...). I have witnessed WAY too many examples of laziness to discount that thought. It's a lot like the pray and spray. Even a blind dog gets a bone once in a while...
                        https://www.flickr.com/photos/23748789@N02/

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                          #27
                          Re: My opinion.

                          Originally posted by H2OJunkie View Post
                          Honestly folks, you can do pretty darn well straight out of the camera. My number one issue as previously stated is when one makes Photoshop a crutch for poor technique. If you use the proper technique, you won't need to sharpen your landscape photos. And if you use the proper technique you will have to soften portraits as opposed to sharpening them (unless of course you use a crappy lens...). I have witnessed WAY too many examples of laziness to discount that thought. It's a lot like the pray and spray. Even a blind dog gets a bone once in a while...
                          Its a Raw file, it needs processing, as its been said digital images need sharpening, WB has to be adjusted, noise needs addressing and any lens corrections put into place, obviously if your shooting Jpeg, thats all done for you, so the camera is processing the shot - nothing just comes straight out of the camera.. People have been processing images since the start of photography its nothing new
                          :- Ian

                          5D Mk III, 24-105 / 70-200 f2.8 L / 100-400 Mk II / 100 macro / 16-35 L / 11-24 L / 1.4 & 2x converters and a bad back carrying it all ;o)

                          :- https://www.flickr.com/photos/fotosespana/

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                            #28
                            Re: My opinion.

                            Welcome to the forum daisy ,at the end of the day it's your camera and your photos ,do as you wish post your images ,take critique on your shoulders and develop your own style .you may change your thinking with time but please remember the only rule is there are no rules . We all have our own opinions . how things should look and the best photos are the ones that you can't tell have been altered .
                            So go ahead post some photos we may rip them to pieces or we may say wow this girls got talent .the ball is firmly in your court

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: My opinion.

                              Originally posted by the black fox View Post
                              Welcome to the forum daisy ,at the end of the day it's your camera and your photos ,do as you wish post your images ,take critique on your shoulders and develop your own style .you may change your thinking with time but please remember the only rule is there are no rules . We all have our own opinions . how things should look and the best photos are the ones that you can't tell have been altered .
                              So go ahead post some photos we may rip them to pieces or we may say wow this girls got talent .the ball is firmly in your court
                              The best response by far!
                              Richard Anderson Photography at www.raphoto.me

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: My opinion.

                                Originally posted by the black fox View Post
                                Welcome to the forum daisy ,at the end of the day it's your camera and your photos ,do as you wish post your images ,take critique on your shoulders and develop your own style .you may change your thinking with time but please remember the only rule is there are no rules . We all have our own opinions . how things should look and the best photos are the ones that you can't tell have been altered .
                                So go ahead post some photos we may rip them to pieces or we may say wow this girls got talent .the ball is firmly in your court
                                100% Agree. Hope to see some of your photos too

                                Comment

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