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    Wild or Captive, does it matter?

    Hi All,

    Have been thinking about possibly posting this question for a while, over my years on this forum I have seen quite a few comments, some quite recently, suggesting that images taken of captive birds or animals are somehow inferior to those captured in the wild.

    I personally don't have a problem with images taken of captive birds or animals, the skill of getting the settings right is still the same and if the photographer didn't volunteer the information would anyone know, (unless of course a bird was shown with jesses hanging down)

    Who is to say what is right or wrong, I spend literally hundreds of hours waiting for owls, kingfishers, hares etc and many times come home without getting a single shot, people who attend Wildlife Parks or reserves do at least get a better chance of not coming home empty handed.

    Thoughts anyone?

    Paul

    #2
    Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

    Last year,not long after I'd bought my EOS,I visited Chester zoo and also our local tropical bird centre,and got some good shots of the macaws etc there.They are free flying during the day and go back to secure roosts when the place closes.

    These are my only chances to get such shots,and I was pleased enough with the results,yet when I posted a few on here,one member in particular had a real pop at me over him not agreeing with shots of captive birds and the like.It seemed to infer that captive shots were somehow not valid and that only shots taken in the wild counted.

    So I'm slightly biased on the subject I suppose,but I'll never get the chance to take shots in the wild and will be happy to just get the'captive'stuff when the chance arises.

    If someone prefers wild to captive,or the other way round,then it's their choice.It's a subject that's likely to divide opinions.

    I guess the same might apply to street photography;I prefer candid shots over posed ones,but people will have their own ideas on which is'best'.
    Last edited by Guest; 09-07-2019, 21:53.

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      #3
      Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

      Personally I don't get excited about photographs of captive creatures - but everyone to their own taste.
      Like Paul, I've spent many thousands of hours over the years in self built hides or whatever waiting for that moment to arrive - more often than not it never did!

      What I find very strange is people admit its a captive birds, in particular birds of prey but always seem to want to hide the legs - Why, what is wrong in showing the jesses - the birds captive.

      My excursion into the world of wildlife photography started way back in the late 1950's, I was considered a odd-bod because I went out photographing birds etc.
      These days wildlife photography is big business and it seems more and more people are getting in on the act and keeping wild creatures - birds of prey etc. for the purpose of charging people to photograph them - not my scene, its free out in the countryside and I love the challenge.

      The pictures I post on this Forum are a record of what I've seen while out and about during the day, many are grab shots. It worries me not if they are not pin sharp - every hair and barb in focus as long as I consider them acceptable. I'm not into the technical side of photography any longer, more often than not I've not got a clue what settings I got.

      Perhaps it would be a good idea to have an extra section on here - wild only and captive only. Something tells me there would be a lot of birds of prey in the wild section that were legless
      Trev

      Equipment - According to the wife more than a Camera Shop got

      Flickr:
      https://www.flickr.com/photos/trevb2639/

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        #4
        Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

        Its the final image that matters to me, I'm not concerned how it was achieved …..unless some harm or distress was unnecessarily caused to the animal of course then that would be unacceptable and probably illegal. .

        I'm not a wildlife photographer....my animal subjects are relatively tame and they arrive on leads....so my views are as a bystander so I hope I don't offend....my thoughts are...

        If there is some competitive element then that would be when it matters....i.e. failure to follow with the rules of the competition/cheating .

        Maybe stating that an image is wildlife and then to find its not in the wild does sound like contradiction....failure to use accurate language

        If the viewer is hung up on literal descriptions or assumes there is competition then that is their problem.

        I did have a feeling of disappointment when I discovered some feeding kingfisher shots were set up using a tank of fish suspended in the water....but that was my ignorance. I wonder how much of what we see on TV natural history shows is set up or even artificially augmented.
        Brian Vickers LRPS

        brianvickersphotography.com

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

          Originally posted by brianvickers View Post
          I did have a feeling of disappointment when I discovered some feeding kingfisher shots were set up using a tank of fish suspended in the water....but that was my ignorance. I wonder how much of what we see on TV natural history shows is set up or even artificially augmented.
          An awful lot Brian. I've done that myself when filming kingfishers many years ago - tank of fish, underwater camera, perch above the tank. You could write a book about what goes on in Natural History filming. It was bad enough with film but with digital the trickery is endless.

          I remember we were filming a family of Stoats that were living in a Dartmoor Dry Stone Wall. Impossible to film within the wall, what did we do.
          I drove to Durham University picked up a family of Stoats they were doing some research on brought them back. We got a load of Dartmoor Stone delivered got a Stone Waller to build a section of wall for us in the studio. Released the Stoats into the wall - and no one knew it was not filmed out on the moor.
          Trev

          Equipment - According to the wife more than a Camera Shop got

          Flickr:
          https://www.flickr.com/photos/trevb2639/

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

            Crikey!
            …..I find that almost as interesting as the animals.
            I like the Royal Photographic Society stance.....which accepts there has always been manipulation in photography.
            Thanks for the interesting anecdote.
            Brian Vickers LRPS

            brianvickersphotography.com

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

              Maybe the monthly challenge should have the subject of captive animals & see how many enter. I think that if someone posts on here a captive bird or animal, they should state that it is, like the dormouse last year that were in a studio.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                Brian Vickers LRPS

                brianvickersphotography.com

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                  Real tricky one this - a large part of me is on the side of if it's a good well taken photo then that's the biggest part, if you can lose the cage / fence etc all the better - if it's a bird flying in a display - what does it matter? it's a bird flying! they don't fly differently for the public (other than planned routes I guess).

                  Staged shot's however I'm not so keen on, it's like when I'm trackside and the person next to me is 'machine gunning' - taking 100 shots to try to get one in focus and then posting it like "look at how great I am" that to me has no skill at all.

                  Just my opinion - don't be offended!

                  .DAVID.
                  Take nothing but photo's - leave nothing but footprints!

                  http://www.davidstallardphotography.com

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                    No real issue as far as I'm concerned. I've been to the BWC and taken images of birds etc. Some of these are quite good, was also a good way to establish technique/ settings.

                    I'm not keen on shots with birds on feeders but I'm not going to put someone down for doing so.
                    Canon 5D3, 7D2, 60D, Canon 70-200L f2.8 IS II, Canon 300 f4L IS, Canon 16-35 f4 L, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, Canon 1.4 MkIII extender, Sigma AF 10-20mm f/3.5 EX DC HSM, Sigma 150-600 Contemporary, Tamron SP AF 70-300 F/4-5.6 Di VC USD, Canon EF-S 18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6 IS
                    https://www.flickr.com/photos/16830751@N03/

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                      #11
                      Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                      I'm here to improve my photography and would be the first to admit that, with the help given, it has. What I seek is constructive criticism so please tell me if my composition, aperture, shutter or ISO were poorly selected. Let me know if the processing could be improved. If mono would be better. Etc.

                      By all means tell me, if you want to, that an image appeals subjectively although if it does or not is largely irrelevant; I've photographed and presented something that I like and your feedback on the technical aspects is valued and greatly appreciated but I'm not going to change my subject matter to please others.

                      To criticise an otherwise technically perfect picture of a bird just because it's on a feeder or in captivity is exposing the same prejudice as criticising one of my steam shots because the locomotive is on a preserved line or even, shock horror, in a museum.

                      Generally gricers don't do that so why do the twitchers? Could there be a smug one-upmanship being sought from declaring that an image of a bird shot after a three month trek up the Amazon is better than one of the same species taken in the local aviary? Certainly the one in the wild will imbue the photographer with a greater sense of achievement but I contend that is irrelevant if the criteria we as forum members apply is simply: which is the better photograph?

                      Cheers,
                      John

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                        #12
                        Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                        Well said John - I agree entirely - but be careful not to fall off that soap-box
                        John Liddle

                        Backwell, North Somerset - "Where the cider apples grow"

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                          Originally posted by John Liddle View Post
                          Well said John - I agree entirely - but be careful not to fall off that soap-box
                          No risk of falling but being pushed? Now that's another matter

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                            I quite enjoyed some of the field craft needed to get some of the shots in Iceland. Stalking the ptarmigan through a lava field, laying on a small beach to photograph divers, phalaropes and grebes. And sitting in a pop up hide for several hours in the direct sun.

                            I'm just glad I'm fit enough to do this. If I wasn't and still wanted to enjoy photography then captive birds would be a good option. Carry on I say.
                            Canon 5D3, 7D2, 60D, Canon 70-200L f2.8 IS II, Canon 300 f4L IS, Canon 16-35 f4 L, Canon 24-105mm f/4L IS USM, Canon 1.4 MkIII extender, Sigma AF 10-20mm f/3.5 EX DC HSM, Sigma 150-600 Contemporary, Tamron SP AF 70-300 F/4-5.6 Di VC USD, Canon EF-S 18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6 IS
                            https://www.flickr.com/photos/16830751@N03/

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Wild or Captive, does it matter?

                              I have come in rather late on this discussion and given it a lot of thought in the meantime. My conclusion is that I am a photographer and it is the final image that counts for me. As long as I obtain that image using my skills, without distressing or harming the subject and without deliberately deceiving my audience, then I am comfortable with the result.

                              I have the equipment and the ability to get the best out of it. I have the field craft and stalking skills to get near enough to my quarry, whilst staying outside of its comfort zone. I also have good panning ability to take moving/ flying shots. Nothing excites me more than stalking my subject and coming away with good images, yet there is a limit to what I can do in the UK and how much disappointment I can take when I come away with nothing, which is more often than not! So, I will intermix my pure wildlife with the occasional captive environment, such as the Hawk Conservancy Trust and that facility was amazing for honing my birds in flight skills before my first trip to Africa. In fact the African shots were easier, because the birds were not restricted to a small flying area. Much easier to get a Vulture or Eagle shot when you notice it approaching from a mile away, so many thanks to the HCT for developing my skills.

                              But, in Africa, guides drove me to the right places and I paid them for the privilege. In the UK, I have paid for those with more experience than me to put me in the right place at the right time. I have paid to use Kingfisher hides, I have paid for Raptor shoot days and I have visited venues where captive birds are flown. Much as I would prefer for every image to be the result of months of skill and stalking, as a photographer it is the image that drives me and I don’t have the patience, time and finances to get that image of an Emperor Penguin at the Antarctic, for a ticket price of £10K, when there is a local Zoo on my doorstep.

                              All of my images posted have been shot in RAW, tweeked to get the best from them and then exported to Photoshop for the final polish. That normally just means cropping, levels, hue and saturation and some sharpening. Very, very rarely, I might need to add something to complete the image. It could be adding a sky, or it could be taking an area from the left of the shot and blending it to the right of the shot to make the composition work. I like to think I would always mention if I added something from another image, but I wouldn’t necessarily bother about a bit of cloning, or blending to refine an existing image.

                              To summarize, I am a photographer and it’s the final image that is important to me. I use all of my skills to get it right in camera and then refine it with post editing. I will not try to deceive the viewer and will invariable mention that it was a captive subject, or state the venue, or mention that the jesses have been removed. My reputation as a photographer (such as it is) has been built up over many, many, years and it would be the height of foolishness to lose it overnight by lying that a captive subject was in fact a wild subject …………… as the winner of the Wildlife photographer of the year did a couple of years ago before he was found out and disqualified.

                              If I were first and foremost a naturalist, I might take a different view!
                              Colin

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