Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

[Nathaniel]

Could any one tell me the real advantage of owning a FF as against a crop camera. I find that many members,including experts like Stan & Dee (apologies for any embarassment caused) ,use a crop to produce super duper pics of the wild life around us. Is there some magical qualities that owning a FF will bring about an improvement in one's pictures?

Many thanks

Nathaniel

[Hereford_EOS]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

Just look at the images produced by a full-frame camera and look at which area the full-frame camera is being used.
Portraits and landscapes is a good example of using a full-frame camera but similar images can be obtained using a APS-C (crop) camera.

APS-C (crop) cameras are less expensive than a full-frame camera as the camera is smaller and the sensor is smaller (x1.6 crop).
Also lenses made specifically for the APS-C (crop) camera are less expensive also (EF-S lenses).
FF cameras have better components, more processing power, better high-ISO capabilities and generally better images.

[Nathaniel]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

Thanks Stephen. But I am not very sure about "better images" having seen some of the top class images posted by crop camera owners. I always believed that it is the talent of the photographer's eye and better lenses that produces better images- the end result.

[celtex]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

Nathaniel, I think that unless you are taking pro-level images that you want to blow up to massive prints - you are fine with the standard crop camera's. I would love a FF but that dream will have to wait a bit longer, but I know if and when I can afford one, someone is going to come along and tell me I should be using medium format....

You can probably say that yes, the FF are better, but you can argue that Platinum is better than Gold - but not may people will moan because they 'only have gold'. Point is the 18 mp sensors you have are more than adequate for most pictures and can be blown up quite large.

You could also say that a compact camera in the hands of a distinguished pro would produce better results than a 5dmkiii in the hands of a lesser experienced person.

The advantage you have for wildlife is that the 1.6 crop makes a 300 mm more like a 480 - so you get more reach

after that I think it is down to practicing framing and composition, and then skillful use of cropping in PP

just my opinion

Ian

[MX5]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

You need to define what you mean by 'better images' cf 'image quality' , 'subjective quality' , etc. But as you hint a first rate photographer could probably extract more from a 300D than a someone less skilled with a 1DX ... but thinking about it I'm not sure ...

.... and do more pixels make for a better image (beyond say 10MP) ..... and does size matter ('big' pixels versus 'little' pixels) ...

Then we are into the conversation I have with a friend who is into MF ... "If you want to see real quality from a digital look what a 6x6cm sensor can yield" then his mate says you'll never beat his Ebony with 5"x4" film and so it goes on and on and on.

Same as cars ... is an M-Series Beemer better than an RS-Audi ... depends who's driving it where

[Hereford_EOS]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

Thanks Stephen. But I am not very sure about "better images" having seen some of the top class images posted by crop camera owners. I always believed that it is the talent of the photographer's eye and better lenses that produces better images- the end result.

Very true Nat.
I use a 7D camera which is "THE" Canon high-end APS-C camera, the quality of a 1D series camera in an APS-C (smaller sensor).
I also use "L" quality lenses.

Full-frame cameras have more focusing points;
APS-C cameras have generally 9-point
The 7D has 19-point whilst the 5D3 and 1D-X have 61-point.

APS-C cameras have generally one processor.
The 7D has dual Digic4 processors and the 5D3 and 1D-X have dual Digic5 processors.

LCD screen; The 7D has a 3" screen whilst the 5D3 and 1D-X have a 3.2" screen.

Frames per second (fps) 7D = 8fps; 5D3 = 6fps; 1D-X = 14fps

and so on ...

[Trevoreast]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

It all comes back to light and composition, imagination, creativity in the end.
If you've learned the basics. Then equipment wise, if you have a relatively recent camera and a decent lens you're good to go ! All cameras are capable of very good pictures.

I think we need to take a good look what photographers (rather than camera owners like me) can do with cameras.
I could have choosen any in the Canon lineup - there is no correlation between the cost of the camera and quality or otherwise of the pictures.

Here are some pics taken with a 550D

http://500px.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=550D

Here are some pics taken with a 5Dmk2

http://500px.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=5Dmk2

Trev

[Hereford_EOS]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

I think we need to take a good look what photographers (rather than camera owners like me) can do with cameras.
I could have choosen any in the Canon lineup - there is no correlation between the cost of the camera and quality or otherwise of the pictures.

Here are some pics taken with a 550D

http://500px.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=550D

Here are some pics taken with a 5Dmk2

http://500px.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=5Dmk2

Trev

Superb links Trev

[Nathaniel]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

Good link,Trev. Thanks a lot. Very informative. My basic interest in photography is as a recorder of events,places visited,wild life,landscapes, buildings- churches and others,church pagentry and other religious pagentry such as the Chinese New year celebrations etc. As long as I get a decent picture to keep, I am over the moon. So it doesn't actually matter to me if I am using a FF or a crop as long as I get what I want- a decent and satisfying picture. I was at one time going down the FF route after I was promised an IDs plus a load of kit but for one reason or another I have been let down and not heard from him-a forum member, since having made arrnagements to collect the kit. So perhaps a FF is not for me.

[Woolley]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

It's a debate I had with myself, first when wondering whether to buy EF-s lenses and then when I'd decided to upgrade. I'd had it in mind I would go FF in the future, but when it came to it, I didn't.

FF has some advantages - better bokeh and the ability to go to f/22 without sufferring diffraction (you're really limited to f/16 on a crop). And then I realised that these advantages were minimal unless you were going for professional work and that the APS-C had many advantages of it's own. Having recently photographed a stage show using both my 7D and a friend's 5DII it confirmed that at my level, the benefits of FF were not obvious.

Sure, the 5DIII adds some significant improvements in AF and low noise, but I imagine they'll be matched when the 7D replacement comes along as they're more to do with it being newer than better.

[colin C]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

I went through my portfolio of prints a couple of days ago and came across one I took on a D60. That's correct D60, not 60D, which was Canon's second digital SLR in it's own right. Some of you may be aware that there were a couple of joint ventures with Kodak before that, but released in Canon's own name the D30 was first with 3.2MP and the D60 second with 6.4MP.

That photo was used in an exhibition that ran for three months, printed to A3+ paper and then with an 85mm border mount around it and it still looks great today. 6.4 MP, 1.6 crop, daren't use it at any ISO above 400 and it could still produce stunning results.

Modern DSLR's can produce stunning results, especially on a 1.6 crop and if you want the ultimate quality, then full frame certainly has the edge. But if it is possible to get good results from an old clunker like the D60, why do we need to bother with 5D, 7D and 1 series? That D60, and 10D which was virtually the same camera, you had to work hard to get the best out of it. You had to know and fully understand it to coax out the quality. We have one member here who still uses a 10D, so he knows what I mean and many others who may remember theirs.

Once set up, the modern crop of Canon's just get on with delivering the results, leaving us to use our photographers eye to find and deliver the shot. Not saying it's easy, it never is, but compared to those early bodies, it's easier.

Colin

[briansquibb]

Re: Crop vs FF or FF vs Crop

I have both a D30 and a D60 - fun using the 3 point AF My 10D is sophisticated in comparison

I will take some pictures and post them for amusement

It is worth noting that the D30, D60 and 10D, although a 1.6 crop, do not take APS-C lens.