Hunting or photographing?

[Sooty]

At the end of February, Paulstw talked about his frustration with photographers who were hoping to emulate his super images of the Kingfishers by following him and asking him about the location. It set me wondering about the whole wildlife photography scene. I am in my late sixties and now live with my daughter who is in her forties. Both of us are committed to photographing whatever creatures we can see. It is the modern, and only acceptable way of hunting in my view, and we both enjoy the hunt as much as the occasional success.
How about the rest of you? Is the hunt for new subjects as important as getting the perfect image? Or are both equally enjoyable?

[Paulstw]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

I think wildlife photography and hunting are directly linked. They both require the same amount of work to a different end. Although the pure end result usually involves something being hung on a wall. My experience of wildlife photographers has been enough to put me off it for a long long time. Blood thirsty, arrogant, self centred and two faced.

I've learned never to rely on anyone ever again for pictures of any kind. I've had images stolen, hides wrecked, slanderous comments and people falling out with me because of my pics. Really childish behaviour from grown men older than me. The problem with wildlife photography, especially where I live, is that because the wildlife is scarce there's so many folk trying to outdo themselves at it. People taking ownership of species just because they found it first. It's totally and utterly bonkers.

This was the sole reason I gave up on it. It's not a battle against getting the shot anymore it's a battle of whose going to get there first and who can fight the best to keep it.

It's a really bloodthirsty genre and I'd rather just leave them to it. The welfare of the animals it totally pretend as far as these people are concerned. They don't care that they are within 10m of a kingy nest and don't have a license. They want that shot, and they genuinely believe they are wildlife photographers because they bought a big lens and an expensive camera. I lost respect for them a while back when I realised we're not all cut from the same cloth.

Also, wildlife photography is such a funny genre. People don't see your shots the way you do. They don't see how long you sat in a hide waiting, or how significant a kingfisher fish pass shot is. No-one but other photographers tend to understand. You're just taking pics of birds in most peoples eyes. I loved the hunt, the chase and the final outcome. It was more of a personal journey of hunting mixed with forcing myself to get the shot correct. I was lazy with my gear, expected it all to land in my lap and in the last year I changed my thinking about it all. It's just a shame that I saw the scene for what it is.

I'm merely referring to the more uncommon of species of course. The more common of wildlife tends to be more acceptable with regards to the folk that photograph them. However, the less common stuff attracts game hunters with big wallets and just as much attitude, and hell mend anyone who gets in their way.

Sorry for the rant but wildlife photography left a really bitter taste.

[Sooty]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Hi Paul. There are some dreadful people about and you seem to have had more than your fair share of them. Please don't give up entirely - your work is so good that you add value to the craft. I'm currently studying, via the camera, the behaviour of a robin in my garden. This not a species that excites normally but this one seems to be unique in that it can grip a branch or nut feeder so that it is hanging sideways, if that makes sense. Not high science I agree but something I have never seen before and it is interesting to me.
We have been living in our new home for only 9 weeks and by watching, and not disturbing, we have identified 27 types of birds plus squirrel, a rat, 7 different butterflies, bats, slow worms, a huge grass snake, frogs, and muntjac. The muntjac grazes in a narrow strip of woodland beside our garden and we slowly accustomed her to our presence for several weeks before attempting to use the camera. She is now confident enough to allow us to see her tiny offspring. We won't be telling the neighbours about her and certainly not about the rat. I can guess what would happen if anyone spotted the rat but as long as it stays away from the house it will be safe from harm. Two rotting bodies of foxes some distance away suggests that poison has been laid. We wonder if hedgehogs and other creatures have suffered this fate. Best to hunt with a zoom lens and not WMD we believe.

[Paulstw]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

If what you are watching is important to you, then you're halfway there. I think this game turns into something that is so far evolved from where you started that you question why you got into it. There's rules about pleasing images, and the like but sometimes it's more about documentation for personal use than anything else.

I applaud the guys who can breeze through and just get pro shots of animal behaviour like it was happening in front of them and they were just lucky. However, it's not luck, and it's not until you try it yourself that you appreciate the work of others.

I do firmly believe that an animal gets used to you. It learns very quickly that you aren't a threat. Part of the reason behind me getting 15ft from a kingfisher without a hide. I enjoyed that aspect of it. What I didn't enjoy was getting the money shots. The fish pass shot is jaded in my eyes.

However, for your own sanity just carry on with doing what you're doing lol

[rcarca]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Paul

I think it is a great shame that you are letting some rude and ill-judged comments get in the way of something that you do so well. I have the utmost admiration for the time effort and dedication that you put into the Kingy shots. I simply do not have the same persistence as you. And that is why you should not let some jumped up b*****d get in the way of your photography. I saw the comments on FB and they were out of order - raining on your parade. I am sure there were other words said or written. Ignore them, please!

And anyway, who here wants to see you getting into Landscape when you have the natural advantages of skill and geography in hand over the rest of us much more pedestrian photographers! I am only relieved that you have much more rain (apart from the floods this year ) to keep you indoors!!!

Oh - and Sooty - I totally agree with you! Photography IS the ONLY acceptable form of hunting! And it needs to be done with skill and patience with the odd little bit of luck thrown in, with ENORMOUS sensitivity to the animals and birds themselves...

Richard

[Paulstw]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Cheers Richard. Yeah that attack on FB totally crumbled me.

[GORDH]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Richards hit the nail on the head Paul, you have a skill which you have honed through practice, dedication and knowing your quarry, F.B trolls are only envious mate as they may have all the gear but not the dedication and most of the great photography is down to that, be it a sunrise at 5.00 am or chasing the weather to get that one shot that stands out over the fells of the Lakes, none of it is rarely down to luck because they dont/wont have this dedication they're jealous of anyone who is successful through hard work and its the same in any hobby, the ones who apply themselves are the ones who achieve more
You're right to take a break from the wildlife shots as you need to recharge your batteries and set new goals but I will say this Paul you will return to it as you did enjoy and develop yourself and in time I think you wll find other outlets to find new wildlife challenges and I would suspect by then the clowns who were pursuing you on the river Kelvin will be long gone .... thats why I said on another thread that you will miss your 400 lens

Kind Regards
Gordon

[Nathaniel]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

I have followed this thread with much interest and all I can say is that one has to keep quiet about where you take your pictures from. I think Paul you have been too honest and frank in your postings mentioning the river Kelvin, in Glasgow etc so much so people have been following you around. I, for example, know where there is a "Dippers" nest but I am not going to mention where it is even when I successfully take some pics of the bird and it's chicks. I have been hanging around to get some decent shots but have failed miserably to date. This is of course different to going to a nature reserve and taking some stunning pictures.

[antoeknee]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Doesn't seem to matter what area of life/discipline you look at there are always those that don't want to put the effort into achieving something.

Like Nat I also know of a dipper nest and unlike the kestrel nest which is plainly visible I've not told anyone where it is as its location would be too easy to disturb.

Paul, like others have said you certainly put a lot of effort into your wildlife photography and the results spoke for themselves. As you rightly say the appreciation of the dedication required is unlikely to come from someone who doesn't know what's really required.

Looks like you've found different discipline that suits you and hope to see some more of your work on here.

Must say I'm saddened that you received unwanted attention from some saddos on FB. Very hard to ignore the inane comments of these people but probably the only sensible thing you can do. These are probably the people with 'all the gear but no idea'.

James Blunt gets loads of grief on Twitter and he's managed to riposte most with humorous replies. Recently someone said when he sang it sounded like he was standing on his d**k. His reply was 'dam thing is always getting in the way!' Definitely made me smile.

[Cyberman]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Paul,

Lots of great comments from the others, and I just want to echo them.
I understand you taking a break, and challenging yourself with new styles and skills. That's brilliant, and a sign of how serious you are about your photography. Learn new skills, challenge yourself and get excited over new styles and methods.

But in the future you should consider getting back to nature and wildlife, you have an obvious talent and high level of skill.
It would be a shame for you to turn your back on it forever.
Forget the negative comments and jealous malicious messages. (I do appreciate it's not easy.)

Whatever pictures you take I look forward to seeing them, as like many others on this forum you inspire people to get out with their cameras and try for a good image.

Andy

[Paulstw]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Appreciate the sentiment guys I really do. Sorry to Sooty for hijacking the thread, but it's kind of on point with the subject I think. I won't give it up for anyone in the world. Even when I'm out doing landscape work I'm always on the hunt for wildlife. In fact the other night, I saw a really rare sight. A female Marsh harrier just sitting on a rock, I also saw a Tawny Owl flying out of a tree. Going further a field will be key. Most photographers don't want to travel to get shots. I will literally go anywhere to get mine.

I haven't used that 400mm lens on my 5DIII yet. I'm too scared to do it in case I get addicted again. Something needs to pay for the 5D purchase lol Credit cards don't pay themselves hee hee.

Going back to Sooty's original concerns. I really do think there is a small number of disrespectful photographers who are really only interested in likes, comments and shares of their work. I think this psychological issue goes deeper than photography. It's some weird form of exhibitionism that has no end. Look at me, look at me, I got a shot of "insert rare species" and then they sit back and watch the comments soar on Flickr or the likes on FB, and it confirms their position on the photography ladder.

Photography is useless if you don't share you work to others, and there's a fine line between simple sharing that we do on here, and that drive to get 'that' shot regardless of the consequences just to get your follower numbers up on Flickr. I've met so many photographers in my travels. Some I would rather pass in the street again and others I'd like to help, however, it's the ones that sneak in to what you're doing and pretend they are your friend, then the second you're backs turned they have you thinking you're on their patch.

I don't think I'll trust another wildlife photographer as long as I live, because it's human nature to hunt, and for these guys the trophy is the on-line praise to make them feel so much better in an otherwise ordinary life. On-line they are amazing, they are king, and likes, comments and shares are confirmation of how good they are.

I find that mindset extremely dangerous in wildlife photography. The hunt seems to go before anything. The welfare of the animal, themselves and others.

My advice to anyone starting out would be;

Take your time
Learn your subject in and out
Tell no one until you're finished with it
Keep your gear well hidden
When sharing on-line don't give away locations
Always, and I mean always put the animal first.

Nature is such a delicate eco system. One thing needs the other, and it's not until you witness it that you realise how very delicate it is. It's also a well oiled machine, and we, the spanners get in the way of that sometimes.

There is a Chaffinch that sits on my neighbours tree chirping when the peanut feeder is empty. At first you laugh and think it's cute, but then you realise that, the reason it's chirping is because it's never learned to feed from anything other than the feeders that have been there since it was born. It never learned to hunt. Smacks you right in the face when it clicks in your mind that people are silly and we get in the way of nature.

[wayne2418]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

I think that's a fantastic post Paul. I cant disagree with any of it !!. ..

[Nathaniel]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

I agree with Paul's post but the one thing I adere to is "tell no one the location" if you stumble upon a secret nesting site. I will certainly post a picture or two of my Dipper and it's chicks but no one will know where it is- that is of course when I get some decent pics of this bird

[the black fox]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

Suppose I'm. Lucky that in the six years I have been doing wildlife I have only come across two oiks such as Paul describes ,I have learned as nat states over that time not to disclose the whereabouts of what I shoot even if it's a well known spot ,apart from nature reserves .
I can also roll on the floor laughing at the attempts of some to buy themselves into better pictures I.e I know of several supposed toggers with all the gear no idea such as a chap with a 1dx plus 300mm 2.8mkii and both mkiii t.c who still manages to shoot noisy out of focus pics in JPEG .the others are similar tales,I even had one pillock hiding in the bushes a hundred yards away from me .

It's a sad game sometimes but not many upset me as the term brick shithouse applies in my case luckily ,and if you think this hobby is bad try metal detecting it's ten times worse as often there's big money involved I even had someone tail me off and I led them for a 200 mile wild goose chase after I found some gold coins ..

Coming back to photography just being aware and enjoying yourself is the real answer and as Paul has found out get away from people

[the black fox]

Re: Hunting or photographing?

I agree with Paul's post but the one thing I adere to is "tell no one the location" if you stumble upon a secret nesting site. I will certainly post a picture or two of my Dipper and it's chicks but no one will know where it is- that is of course when I get some decent pics of this bird

Bet I know where it is already nat LOL