Photographers vs Judges

[colin C]

IMG_0668b by colin cross, on Flickr

I am pleased with the above image. It was a fast action shot, in difficult light and I count myself quite lucky it was a keeper. Now, there is an elephant in the room, or more specifically and out of focus White Egret. In many respects it is a distraction and could be said to spoil the image. However, as the photographer I don't care. It was there on the day and I even sort of hear the Egret in the background saying: " Cor ............ I wish I could do that!", and that amuses me.

But, would I submit that image to a competition? Not in a month of Sundays. As a photographer, that image captures the whole experience of taking the shot and consequently I have "baggage" associated with the image. A Judge has only the image to consider and nothing else. It will be judged against other images submitted and assuming there is some wow factor to the shot, it is well exposed, well composed and there are no technical failings, it should score well. But, a big blob of white won't do it any favours, so the following image would be used for judgement.


IMG_0668c by colin cross, on Flickr

[ST-EOS]

Well captured and an excellent example of post processing improvement of an image, well done Colin

[Trev B]

Sorry can't agree, so that's me in the dog house on here. If that were my shot the egret would stay, it was there when the shot was taken, if it's so disliked, why take the shot - why turn a good capture into a lie.
However a fantastic capture Colin. ----- I'll now get me coat and go.

[Coolcat]

Great image.....Of course, if submitting in Natural History competition I think you would fall foul of submission criteria in your edited version with PAGB rules......Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[colin C]

I'll now get me coat and go.

No need to get your coat Trev, your opinions are always welcome. I also prefer the original image and I have enough Osprey images without the Egret, that I would have no problem submitting an unedited image.

However, with my Devils Advocate Hat on, you can't put the Genie back in the bottle. Even the well respected Ansell Adams over manipulated his images and with the help of a bunch of navvies, even manipulated the original scene.

For me, it's about personal integrity. I wouldn't comment regarding minor technical issues such as correcting exposure, colour, contrast, cropping etc. But I like to think I would advise the viewer if I removed something significant from the image, such as jesses, ring tags, or even (Heaven Forbid) ............... blobby white egrets!

Adding things into an image I am a lot more uncomfortable over and I can't envisage where I would do that, but if the author advised it was a composite image, then there wouldn't be any attempted deception.

[@imagesBV]

I have no experience of judges.....but I've read enough to be dissuaded from entering competitions....Its always hard to judge any artistic endeavour competitively, why does art have competitions, isn't that what sport is for?
Having said that I like both versions...purely pictorially I'd say that the sans egret is more effective as there is no distraction.....if I were a detective wanting to assess a crime scene I'd say the image should not be manipulated and the removal of the egret is tampering with evidence.
I totally get the views above respecting your individual perspectives.

[colin C]

I have no experience of judges.....but I've read enough to be dissuaded from entering competitions....Its always hard to judge any artistic endeavour competitively, why does art have competitions, isn't that what sport is for?

Yet you have entered competitions on this Forum and won, including the prestigious end of year EOS Showcase. You were judged by your peers and in effect, that is what most Judges are. For Camera Club competitions and inter-club competitions Judges tend to be neutral good photographers, who know what they are talking about, are prepared to stand up front of a room full of strangers, offer their opinions on the image presented and often suggest helpful insights on how the image could possibly be improved. Many photographers learn a great deal from this process, as indeed do we when we submit our images to this Forum for comment. We are judged and provided feedback from other members and long may it continue.

When I was a Judge I learn't that a photographer considered a Judge was rubbish if he gave lower marks than the photographer expected, but a Judge was considered marvellous if he gave marks higher than expected. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but a quick getaway spot in the carpark always helped.

[CasaRova]

The shot was taken in the wild and was not on a set, photo shoot. In my humble opinion the egret stays, the photo tells us a story. it is an excellent photo. dammed if you do dammed if you don't, the second photo would loose points for the blur where the egret was.

[@imagesBV]

Oh no...you caught me red handed but only slightly red faced Colin....Yes Forum competitions of course, but the judges are all wonderful level headed members with no fixed rules or agenda...whereas club judges tend to be firm in their rules and expectations.....we had a great debate at an RPS event with a club judge who seemed to have no holistic sense at all.
Competition is fine for those that enjoy it...I wouldn't knock it for its improvement opportunities and benefits if that leads to being a better photographer....providing you're fully signed up to that.

My simple position is that science and technology describes the world in numbers, formulas and language by which rules of application are developed ....while art describes the world to our basic senses in terms of sight and sound (I don't think touch, taste and smell have been exploited by art yet....but smelly TV was once on the cards).
In the real world art does get described as a scientist would....else we'd not be able to converse our subject and passion.

I think wildlife photography (as per some other genres) have a dual role.....documenting from a science viewpoint and at the same time presenting a pleasing image from an art viewpoint.

I like these types of discussions......sorry for the diatribe...

[SpringfieldPhoto]

In competitions it used to be that nature pictures should be un-edited. Unfortunately with modern software it can be very difficult to tell whether an image is edited.

[Daisy M]

I think my views have been well aired on here and I will try and match Trev's coat as I leave the discussion. Having been given the Countryfile Calendar this year there is no doubt in my mind that most of them have been achieved in p/p, It does not stop me who does not like p/p entering a shot into them occasionally, but I would never change my image to suit them.
Of course you are correct, the image does look better without the Egret, but it was there and that's that. I would be very happy if I had captured that first shot Colin s** the judges.

[Daisy M]

Colin,To some extent I am disappointed with the small response to your points, I thought this one may well be a more followed and argued subject.

[Trev B]

I keep looking at this. What would be wrong, and if it were my shot it's what I would have done if I wanted to get rid of the Egret - just crop it to portrait format. The Osprey would still have room to fly into the shot.
I would add I have no experience of photographic competitions, I've never entered one in my life.

PS. I'm still looking for me coat

[lunarbo]

I am disappointed with the small response to your points

Well David, I can see the Forum magazine picking up the ball and running with this one ! it's the old chestnut on " What do Judges want? " and we know that tastes vary

In my own pictures I have no hesitation getting rid of red anoraks, telegraph poles and bits of litter as well as shadows, highlights and saturation....... I call it enhancement.

If I'd waited for 30 minutes in poor light with variegated background for the osprey to come off its perch, then shoot down at the speed of lightening, and managed to get him with fish and in focus I'd be chuffed to mintballs ! The egret completes the story and I'd print it BIG and put it on my wall

But I wouldn't enter it in a nature photo competition because I know they insist on natural and the egret is indeed an OOF blob that detracts from a competition entry

There, I've said my bit.

Good work Colin !!

[Trev B]

Colin, To some extent I am disappointed with the small response to your points, I thought this one may well be a more followed and argued subject.

David, I'm not surprised, when you consider there are 11,362 members of the Forum, and the number that ever seem to post anything on the Forum. There always seems to be the same small handful of us all the time. In fact this thread has had post from nine members, which is not many less than post pictures in general -- I would say its had a good response considering.
It would be interesting to know how many of the 11,362 members own a camera.