Wireless Flash Trigger

[Dave_S]

As I now have two Speedlite flashguns, a 420EX and a 430EXll, it would be nice to be able to fire them both off-camera.

Both can be used as 'Slaves' and are wireless receivers, but do not have the capability to transmit like the 580EX and 600EX variants.

It would seem financially illogical to buy a 600EX at £400+, just to fire another Speedlite.

So, I'm thinking that a wireless trigger would be a cost effective way to go.

The Canon trigger is around £174, but I see there are several 'other brands' (Chinese) at very attractive prices, the Yongnuo being a prominent one.

Has anyone had any experience with these non Canon wireless triggers, and could they be expected to work with the 5D Mklll and Canon Speedlites?

Dave

[rajjayaraj]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Dave, i own Yongnuo 602 and 622c, they work very well with all my flash (canon 430EXII, Yn580, Sigma 500 super and canon 207) on 5D3.
Raj

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Thanks Raj, that's useful feedback

Dave

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Hmm!!, a bit more research may have highlighted a problem.

As I now understand it, the yn622 will only work with Canon series II speedlites.

My 420EX, unlike the my 430EXll, is not a series II model. It would seem that speedlites are wireless/TTL capable if they are series II versions.

Infra Red (line of sight) yes, but wireless in the true sense of the word no.

Dave

[rajjayaraj]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Sorry Dave i have not made it clear, the 602 works with all the flahes i mentioned but the 622c only works with canon and yn flash but not the sigma. Hope i made it clear and useful for you

[S_J_P]

Wireless Flash Trigger

Dave, off-camera triggering can be a bit of a nightmare to configure where different vintage and makes of flash are concerned, whilst manual triggering should be simply implemented, E-TTL is likely to be difficult to successfully and simply achieve.

A good starting point is merely an off-camera cord, Canon and Yongnuo (amongst others) provide these for between around £15-£30 which'll give you full off-camera E-TTL of a single 'gun with perhaps the second triggered in optical slave mode (manual).

You can then think about what you want to achieve next, how many 'guns, auto or manual, and whether you want radio or optical triggering and work from there. There are options for radio from Hanel, Yongnuo, and Pixel King (amongst others) but I'm not sure how compatible they are with older 'guns, but they should be trigger able in manual mode if nothing else). You could also go the optical route, perhaps using a new "master" flash such as Yongnuo 568 II (around £120) Nissin Di866 ii (around £180), but again compatibility in auto mode may be questionable, but manual should be a given.

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Thanks for clarifying that Raj.

Steve, you have given me 'food for thought' with what you say, thank you.

To be honest, I'm not completely sure what I want to achieve, and this whole off-camera flash thing was triggered (no pun intended ), when the other day, my daughter and son-in-law said that they needed to renew their passports, and wanted new photos for them.

I set up (tripod) the 5D + plus 105L, and the 430EXll speedlite (bounced off the ceiling), and took the necessary 'shots', producing nice results.

Then I got to thinking that still having the old 420EX speedlite, it would be nice to use both flashguns, and play around with a bit of portrait photography, especially with the grandchildren.

Both the 420EX and the 430EXll are capable of being fired as 'slaves' using an optical pulse (IR), but of course they can only receive, not transmit. Thus needing such as a 580EX or 600EX as a master unit.

Of course the Canon ST-E2 is an optical master unit, but at £174 for a simple IR transmitter, it is ridiculously over priced.

A TV remote control is more complex than that, and a fraction of the price.

So, I'm thinking that a wired setup, as you suggest would be a sensible/logical way forward for my simplistic requirements.

Dave

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

D
A good starting point is merely an off-camera cord, Canon and Yongnuo (amongst others) provide these for between around £15-£30 which'll give you full off-camera E-TTL of a single 'gun with perhaps the second triggered in optical slave mode (manual).

Been thinking about what you said in this sentence Steve, and surely the second flash triggered in optical slave mode, can't be done without an optical master unit, to transmit the IR signal, which of course the 430EXll can't do.

Dave

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

I think I might have found the solution

Yongnuo make a clone of the Canon ST-E2, at less than half the price of the Canon version.

According to the speedlite manuals, both the 420EX and 430EXll will work with the ST-E2 unit.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yongnuo-ST-E2-Speedlite-Transmitter-Canon/dp/B009FXBEAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385160900&sr=8-1&keywords=yongnuo+st-e2

or perhaps using one of these, which I think is along the lines that you suggested Steve.

http://www.hkyongnuo.com/e-detail.php?ID=249

Dave

[S_J_P]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Those will both work Dave, but do investigate compatibility. There are differences between the EX and EX ii 'guns in terms of their auto mode (E-TTL AND E-TTL II), I believe the II's are backwards compatible but you don't want to invest in E-TTL(I) control gear which isn't compatible with E-TTL II.

Not sure how much you know about Canon's flash system, but a little background may not go amiss, forgiveness if you're already aware of this!

Most flash will work in a manual triggered mode, using a built in or external slave eye. In this mode the flash can be fired as soon as it detects a flash from another gun, this isn't optical master/slave where there are actually two flashes, first a metering pre-flash at reduced power and then the main flash at the camera determined power. E-TTL uses this pre-flash system and requires guns which are compatible with the communications of the pre-flash such as the ST-E2 or 580/600 gun, this is expensive but you're paying for the control technology. These complex guns can be identified by the five connector pins on their bases. E-TTL II is similar to version I but introduced distance information feedback from compatible lenses and improved exposure calculation. Any II gun should be backwards compatible with the I system.

Most reasonably priced guns also have an Auto mode in which each individual gun can make as estimation of how much flash light it needs to achieve a decent exposure, this is determined by a sensor facing forward on the flash. This system us ignorant of any other aspects of lighting such as ambient and other guns, but will stop the flash as soon as it thinks there's sufficient light. There are of course limitations with this system, off centre subjects, dark or light subjects etc, the system isn't as clever as a cameras evaluative metering.

So, flash can be fired in :
manual
flash-auto
camera-auto (E-TTL) modes.

They can also be fired on camera or off-camera :
with an E-TTL cord (such as the one you linked which retains all camera control)
a cheaper flash-sync cord which just transmits a fire signal
optically by a slave eye which can be in manual or flash-auto
Optically using an optical master/slave set-up such as ST-E2/master flash
Radio triggered using basic manual triggers such as 603's which will not transmit any auto exposure information
Radio using ST-E3/600/622 which transmits all the auto control settings

Plus probably a few more modes I've not listed!

If I were you I'd approach it in the following manner.

Get an off camera E-TTL cord, these are great for a single flash in full auto, they're easy to use and set up, they give good control of lighting direction, and they're perfect for most applications where you want some direction to the light. On the occasion when you want a second gun firing, use it in manual (or flash-auto) and trigger it in manual-optical mode, I.e. using a built-in slave-eye. Manual optical slave triggering comes on two flavours, S(lave) 1 and S(lave) 2. S1 will trigger when it sees another flash, S2 will ignore the E-TTL pre-flash and then trigger on the main flash (which is obviously preferable!) Check whether your old gun has S1/2 modes.

If you're really hankering after a multi-flash auto set up, E-TTL across all guns, then the Yongnuo ST-E2 clone is cheap, but I'd be inclined to pay £120 for a 568ii which will give you a third flashgun, master functionality to fire both your existing 4series guns, plus (and this is an enormous plus) high speed sync (HSS)

That's enough typing on my phone!

[S_J_P]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Dave, a brief 'net surf suggests that the 420 can only be triggered at full power as a wired slave (no slave eye and no S1/2), so option 1 may not be worthwhile at all in your case. I had an old Cobra 700 which I flirted with for a while using radio triggers (note that as mentioned earlier in this thread, older flashes aren't compatible with newer E-TTL radio triggers in auto, but you can still trigger them in manual mode) but it's constant full-power output soon became a chore to combat so I moved on.

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Thanks Steve, I have learnt much from that, and appreciate your taking the time the write it up, especially using a mobile phone.

Both the 420EX and 430EXll are five pin hot-shoe connectors, and both will operate in TTL manual flash.

The 420EX will operate in E-TTL auto flash, whereas the 430EX ll operates in E-TTL ll/E

Both units have 4 selectable Slave Channels.

Unfortunately, there is no information in the user manuals with regards to compatibility issues when using series 1 and series ll speedlites together.

I need to sit down and digest what you have said, as it is very comprehensive, and I have printed it off.

There is another off-camera cord, for use with two flash guns, that is compatible with both E-TTL and E-TTL ll.

However, it appears to be switchable between Flash 1 and Flash 2, but doesn't appear to offer the option of both Flash 1 and 2 together.

I'll give Park Cameras a call to clarify this.

http://www.parkcameras.com/9546/Nissin-SC-01--SC01--Universal-Shoe-Cord.html

Dave

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

Dave, a brief 'net surf suggests that the 420 can only be triggered at full power as a wired slave (no slave eye and no S1/2), so option 1 may not be worthwhile at all in your case. I had an old Cobra 700 which I flirted with for a while using radio triggers (note that as mentioned earlier in this thread, older flashes aren't compatible with newer E-TTL radio triggers in auto, but you can still trigger them in manual mode) but it's constant full-power output soon became a chore to combat so I moved on.

Ah!!, crossed posts Steve

That's useful additional info, thanks.

Dave

[Dave_S]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

A very interesting article on Canon EX flash units, and the differences between TTL, E-TTL, and E-TTL ll.

http://super.nova.org/DPR/Canon/TTL/

From another article, it appears that when used as a 'slave' the EX420, can only be used in Auto Mode, and not Manual.

The Canon 'Info Bank' states':

"The Speedlites 550EX, 580EX and 580EX II can be used as master units by adjusting the settings on the flashgun. The slave units in the system include the models mentioned above as well as the 420EX, 430EX, 430EX II, 320EX and 270EX II. With the exception of the MR-14EX and MT-24EX Speedlites, which can only be master units, none of the other Speedlites in the Canon range are compatible with the wireless flash system."

From this I can assume that with the ST-E2 transmitter (optical), both the 420EX and 430EX ll, can be operated as 'Slaves' in E-TTL mode. Nowhere can I find any reference to the fact that series 1 and series 2 speedlites can't be used together as 'Slaves'. Conversely, neither can I find any reference to the fact that they can.


Dave

[S_J_P]

Re: Wireless Flash Trigger

It's all bloomin' complicated Dave, I hope you find something which works (and report back here!)

One thing which I thought about whilst out on the beach today which you should consider is the relative merits of optical vs radio triggering. Optical, using a master flash or ST-E2, has limited range especially when on bright sunlight, and is often less than 10m, possibly as little at 10' especially with the ST-E2 which being IR instead of optical has a more limited range than a master flashgun. With radio, range is significantly increased, possibly by a factor of ten, and this may be a clincher. Another benefit of radio is that it's possible to have no flash input from the direction of the camera, with an optical system the master flash will still contribute a small amount of flash power even when it's turned to "off" and this can affect lighting and the look of your image.

As I think I mentioned before, I'd be inclined to go with a YN 568 ii and use it as master controlling both the 430ii and 420 in auto. As far as I know the control signals are identical between E-TTL and E-TTL ii, it's just the calculation used on the master gun which differs.